PMR Force Feedback. I think it's the best on the market and here is why

[eekz]

Hello once again!
I've put pretty much time in figuring out how PMRs FFB works and want to share the main concept that I've discovered and this thing makes the PMR's FFB the best implementation for me personally.

The good starting point is the official FFB Guide. So if you want to make the sim's FFB better for you, go for it.

However, the main point is the following (to my understanding)

There are two extremes you can get on what forces your FFB is based:
1. Self-aligning torque
2. Lateral G-load

The best thing about PMR FFB system is that is allows you to try both those extremes and figure out what is better for you and for your speed. I don't recollect any other sim that allows you to have so many options in tuning your FFB and choose on what forces it's based (maybe RF2 via editing json files iirc, but not 100% sure here)

So in my case the example is on the following gear - 3.2 Nm DD wheel + Porsche 992 GT3
The global FFB settings is the following:

But this not so important as the real difference happens in the car's setup.

1. Self-aligning based approach
The main options you'd like to look at are:
Alignment boost
Car's caster offset
Low EQ
In my case it is:

If you have more powerful DD base you might change the EQ, it's just amplifier of alignment torque
Also increasing caster offset to positive increases aligning torque as it should.
The main thing I'd like to mention is Alignment boost as I think it is too little info provided in the official guide.

Increasing alignment boost will not only make your self-alignment force stronger but it modifies the feel of the grip change significantly.
Let's say at 0 option we have the following graph

If you increase the alignment boost to it's extreme it will make the graph look like it:

You get more force in the center but the drop off of the force on grip loss will be also sudden and pronounced. So basically, at extreme it will feel like constantly catching this peak grip balancing like walking on edge of a knife.
That's why I wouldn't recommend boosting it too much. Ideally you need to tune it to the point when you feel where the peak is and there is still some room for error before the force drops off.

2. G-load based approach
For this one I've tried per manual reducing Low EQ and adding Load boost - but it didn't work. The wheel stayed empty. I guess there is an error in manual. What you really want to do here is to put alignment boost to -1.00 (so the change in alignment forces will be maximally flat) like that

And then increase Load boost to 1.0
After that with Low EQ you can adjust the strength of load boost in the FFB signal even more if you need it.
Mine looks like that (it's atm, probably you want to go EQ 1.0 as I'm not sure if Load Boost is amplified by low EQ more than 1.0. Need to test):

This way the main thing you feel while cornering is the change of lateral G-force
If you want to reduce self-aligning torque component even more - go for negative caster offsets on the car. I believe at -3 you'll end up will almost pure G-load torques, but I'm not that crazy to try it

It'll make the feel of FFB more intuitively clear and probably natural. It's a matter of preference what there was even a video on YT about it from Gamermuscle. However, basing mainly on G-forces will make the car harder to catch on slides and fast directional changes.

And you can blend those two extreme approaches with the settings of car's FFB up to your liking. But be cautious here: blending load boost and alignment boost can do wired things in certain harsh car transitions that will feel like your tires are glued to the tarmac for no reason.

In the end, I'd like to say that it's really big freedom here in PMR on how you want your FFB to be and feel. I don't find such freedom in tuning in other sims and if you don't like the approach implemented by devs there - you just either get used to it (and probably get bad habits in some cases) or drop it. PMRs system gives you options and that's what makes it's FFB the best personally for me.

I believe with more capable base in terms of NMs the car’s feedback through the wheel can be tuned to replicate the real vehicle very accurately. The system clearly demonstrates that it’s possible. However, you need to have driven those cars yourself to truly understand how they feel.

Not saying that there is no need in improvement, tire slide feel, ABS and TC feel and probably some other details could be definitely improved, but while doing it, please don't break the concept which is really good!

Thanks for your attention!
Best regards,
eekz

NOTE: this is written basing on my personal understanding. I'm not pretending to be 100% correct, but that's what I figured out and summarized during my personal testing.

 

[John Hargreaves]

Did you find a way to boost the road texture feel? The tracks to me feel like they are made from glass with a super smooth surface, there is very little road texture present. It would be nice to have some engine vibration available too, if you sit in a car with the engine on and eyes closed, you can tell it's alive just by putting your fingertips on the wheel, but again I can't find a way to replicate this.

 

[eekz]

Did you find a way to boost the road texture feel? The tracks to me feel like they are made from glass with a super smooth surface, there is very little road texture present. It would be nice to have some engine vibration available too, if you sit in a car with the engine on and eyes closed, you can tell it's alive just by putting your fingertips on the wheel, but again I can't find a way to replicate this.

Yeah, I agree that at some point there is feeling the road texture is flat and could have a better feel. I thought it's just me or my base . Try this EQ settings. Probably they do not solve the problem completely but for me improved how the tires feel.


I believe for better surface texture feel you need to increase EQ High really much (it is somewhere in this frequencies), but it also increases bumps on curbs and when you get better texture, curbs become very strong too. Can be dangerous on strong bases.

By the way, tuning suspension dampening theoretically can help too.

 

[John Hargreaves]

I've had EQ high up as much as 4.0, but it's still a long way off something like AMS2. I'll keep tinkering, some cars seem to give out better feel than others.

 

[eekz]

I've had EQ high up as much as 4.0, but it's still a long way off something like AMS2. I'll keep tinkering, some cars seem to give out better feel than others.

AMS2 has separate channel for FX, and honestly, I don't think they are accurately physically based there.

 

[TRCB]

I tried this with Porsche 992, absolute garbage FFB, none of this helps at all until they fix the fact that a LOT of cars the FFB is completely broken at game level.

 

[eekz]

I tried this with Porsche 992, absolute garbage FFB, none of this helps at all until they fix the fact that a LOT of cars the FFB is completely broken at game level.

Ok. And what is good FFB from your point of view?

 

[Modnui]

I tried this with Porsche 992, absolute garbage FFB, none of this helps at all until they fix the fact that a LOT of cars the FFB is completely broken at game level.

It depends of what wheel you are using, this settings are for DD wheels, I use wery different settings for g923 which is gear drive.

 

[Hebus71]

@eekz thanks for your work, but it could help if you tell what model model and brand of wheel you have, FFB is very different depending the brand and the type of wheel (gear, belt, DD)

With my TM TGT2, I'm pretty happy with default setup, so I leave it like this

 

[eekz]

My wheel is low end 3.2 Nm DD - PXN V10 Pro
On better wheels, probably you won't need to use EQ as higher Nm give higher dynamics range, and you'll be able to feel everything at once on default. Some cars like GTO or Group 5 also good on default on my wheel too.

What motivated me to do the post is that I see many people complaining - FFB bad and everything, while actually it gives you a variaty of options that you can really tune it to your liking, or even mimic some other sim that you are used to.

Want accent of aligning-tourque - you can do it, want more G-load based - you can do it, want to blend them - also not a problem.
I don't recollect such a flexible system anywhere else.

For example, I play LMU too, and I can feel that there are a lot of G-load based torque in FFB signal which makes GT3 cars feel a little "boaty" for me, but there are no options to finetune that and you just have to live with it.

 

[Savoury]

I tried this with Porsche 992, absolute garbage FFB, none of this helps at all until they fix the fact that a LOT of cars the FFB is completely broken at game level.

I simply had to test this as it's a car I'd not driven before and wanted to feel just how bad the FFB was. Using a Fanatec GTDD Pro 8nm.. pretty much stock settings on the base and default in-game FFB.. except for Strength which I set to 1.48 in the pits (as is my go-to with all cars).

The FFB was, for me at least, superb.. strong, detailed and let me know exactly what the car was doing at all times.

I don't particularly like the car itself.. but I certainly cannot find fault with the FFB at all.

 

[2fast4u]

Personally I think this game, like their past titles, has too many ffb settings especially since its leaning towards the sim side of things. Cars should feel like they're supposed to feel, if it has heavy or light steering, if it feels numb, whatever it is, thats what it should feel like in the game.

The only settings we should need to touch are tuning settings. The rides too rough, the steering needs to be sharper, etc can all be changed by tuning the car, like they do in real life.

Everyones different though, everyone has different wheels so a few global settings are obviously necessary. But I think having more per car setting then global is simply ridiculous.

Ive never considered myself much of a purist when it comes to these things as at the end of the day these are all video games and should be fun more than anything else. But I think by having this many options and trying to make the cars adapt to you rather than you adapt to the car kind of negates the need for sims.

If you've played forza motorsport or gt7, the ffb is fine to feel the basic things you need to feel, but ultimately the cars all feel pretty similar. Cars in sims are usually more varied in their feel as they are in real life. If you're always changing the feel to your preference, you're basically making them feel the same.

 

[DriverGPRO]

Steering wheels vary greatly and have different modes of operation.
Therefore, game developers are unable to implement all variants.
Expecting default settings will result in suboptimal use.
The PMR developers want to provide an immersive steering experience, and if they standardize this, it will be in a safe configuration, but one that doesn't utilize the full potential of steering wheels.
This can be compared to old CPUs that were sold in a safe configuration but had additional power margins that enthusiasts overclocked.
I support normalizing FFB as you propose, but there should also be an option for advanced users.
This is how global settings currently work. There is information about settings that can be dangerous.

 

[John Hargreaves]

I like having all the options, it's a great strength of a proper PC sim, but I do appreciate a good baseline default too, otherwise you can get too deep down the rabbit hole and spend more time tweaking than driving. I hope S4 get the chance to look at this and refine the baseline defaults over the coming months.

 

[meff1091]

What is the steering lock number of the cars in pmr individually ? i asked Mr. bell on x and he said

 

[Savoury]

What is the steering lock number of the cars in pmr individually ? i asked Mr. bell on x and he said

I saw that and honestly have no idea what Ian meant. I can't see anything that indicates steering lock angles for each car in the settings menus.

 

[2fast4u]

I saw that and honestly have no idea what Ian meant. I can't see anything that indicates steering lock angles for each car in the settings menus.

I think he was referring to steering rack rate, most games don't show the dor of each car. I don't know if this game has a soft lock, but if it does you can rotate the wheel until it hits that point and get a general idea of what it is. Realistically it doesnt technically matter what the actual number is, you just adjust the steering rack rate to where you need it.

 

[Mahjik]

Cars should feel like they're supposed to feel, if it has heavy or light steering, if it feels numb, whatever it is, thats what it should feel like in the game.

So first, I agree with that statement.

However, I understand why S4 and other sim makers do it. In a real car, 90% of this stuff that is happening doesn't happen there. It happens in the chassis. So you feel it through your body, not the steering wheel. Majority of sim racers don't have motion rigs or even rigs at all with tactile devices on them for that feel. To create the sensations otherwise, they have the faux sensations through the FFB.

However, all these options to provide the ability for those that want it, to have it. And for those that don't, they can set it so they don't have it. I have tactile devices on my rig. Many of the things people want in FFB, I get with tactile sensation so I don't make FFB as complicated as most. But again, I can understand why they want it.

 

[Mahjik]

I tried this with Porsche 992, absolute garbage FFB, none of this helps at all until they fix the fact that a LOT of cars the FFB is completely broken at game level.

The "Steering Stiffness" on that car is high by default. I find I dislike most FFB feeling cars when that is set high on default. That is usually the first thing to change on cars. FWIW, I don't set that higher than 4-5 on any vehicle.

 

[2fast4u]

So first, I agree with that statement.

However, I understand why S4 and other sim makers do it. In a real car, 90% of this stuff that is happening doesn't happen there. It happens in the chassis. So you feel it through your body, not the steering wheel. Majority of sim racers don't have motion rigs or even rigs at all with tactile devices on them for that feel. To create the sensations otherwise, they have the faux sensations through the FFB.

However, all these options to provide the ability for those that want it, to have it. And for those that don't, they can set it so they don't have it. I have tactile devices on my rig. Many of the things people want in FFB, I get with tactile sensation so I don't make FFB as complicated as most. But again, I can understand why they want it.

I don't have tactile devices, but I also don't go nuts with options. I'm more about speed than immersion, so I don't like heavy ffb or too many things going on at once as it can hide the more important forces.

I don't think options are a negative i just think too many options can lead people in the wrong direction a lot of the time. I think this games ffb relies too much on these options. Its a bunch of boosts and if these are done improperly you're just adding a lot of extra noise.

I don't think many people understand what they're doing. I don't think they always realize that by adding to one thing they're actually taking away from another.

I think this leads people to not tune the car properly as they might be feeling things that are not really an issue but since the forces are amplified or muddied they seem like one.

I think when this team was Slightly Mad, they knew this was an issue which is why in pcars 2 they separated the ffb into "flavours". While not a perfect system, it at least put people in the right direction of where to go.

Personally I think Assetto Corsa has the best ffb implementation. The options are extremely simplistic and it allows its physics to show through. It allows the player to focus on learning the cars characteristics, tune them and then race them. Imo it feels very natural to drive.